tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post7237955299275094491..comments2024-03-29T03:45:01.236-07:00Comments on TalkToYoUniverse: Do you want to take on dialects?Juliette Wadehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-61472792817083017572008-07-24T21:00:00.000-07:002008-07-24T21:00:00.000-07:00Wow, Byron! Out of context I find that a bit tric...Wow, Byron! Out of context I find that a bit tricky to process, but it sure has flavor!Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-88675354073664731392008-07-24T20:08:00.000-07:002008-07-24T20:08:00.000-07:00In that case, Juliette, no problem. ;-)And Bill, ...In that case, Juliette, no problem. ;-)<BR/><BR/>And Bill, it's been ages ago, but I found Hawaian pidgin fascinating enough myself to write a brief paper for my graduate sociolinguistics class on it. Don't remember a whole lot about it other than what you said, though.<BR/><BR/>I have plans to mention about the sad fate of perhaps my favorite author Avram Davidson of whom Ursula K. Le Guin said, "Avram's ear for weird ways of talking was wonderful" and how it may relate to this topic, but I'm short on time.<BR/><BR/>However, speaking of creoles like Hawaiann Pidgin, here's a Davidson tidbit to ponder, perhaps feel horror from, annoyance, or maybe wonder:<BR/><BR/>"'Een de w'ol' days,' the voice from the back said, 'every good 'oman, she di know which bush yerb good fah wyes, fah kid-ney, which bush yerb good fah heart, which bush yerb good fah fever. But ahl of dem good w'ol' 'oman, new, dey dead, you see. Yes mon. Ahl poss away. No-body know bush medicine nowadays. Only _bush-doc-tor_. And dey very few, sah, very few.'"<BR/><BR/>--From "Manatee Gal Won't You Come Out Tonight?"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06108862144262381587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-44042727789796785752008-07-24T19:44:00.000-07:002008-07-24T19:44:00.000-07:00Good to see you again, Mr. Moonroe. The place I r...Good to see you again, Mr. Moonroe. The place I remember seeing Hawaiian pidgin was in Lilo and Stitch. I've been to Hawaii, but have not heard it spoken in person. It sounds from your comment like you're trying to extrapolate it into an SF setting? Hard to say when one has gone too far, but a good thing to do would be to find a reader unfamiliar with the dialect and test out what you've got. They'll be able to tell you if it's hard to read!Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-20013869411957670752008-07-24T19:19:00.000-07:002008-07-24T19:19:00.000-07:00If it's true that "a language is a dialect with an...If it's true that "a language is a dialect with an army", what does that make creole languages?<BR/><BR/>My current interest is with Hawaiian pidgin. It's made the leap to the web via places like Alohaworld.com, and is pretty infectious. As I recall, it's got a Hawaiian structure with vocabulary from Japan, Korea, the Phillipines and the US. It's a short leap to me to add bits of Maori and even some Aussie slang. The trick is to know at what point it's being put on a little thick--it seems to me that with star names, for example, some would have their Western designations, while others would be referred to by their panpacific names.<BR/><BR/>There's a ton of great baby name sites out there that can help with picking appropriate character names.Bill Moonroehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04729364804002855416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-34566310348282810912008-07-24T18:31:00.000-07:002008-07-24T18:31:00.000-07:00Byron, I went and looked up the study, and it was ...Byron, I went and looked up the study, and it was indeed individual stores. Though I agree it would be interesting to see if different departments spoke differently. I bet they do - or at least, they speak differently depending on their clientele.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-81362528254350058452008-07-24T18:21:00.000-07:002008-07-24T18:21:00.000-07:00Actually, I'm still not sure it's the same study. ...Actually, I'm still not sure it's the same study. The way you describe it sounds different. In the Labov study, it wasn't different speakers on different floors. In the study I cited, Labov went to three different department stores, some considered "classier" than others. He then got the employers there to say "fourth floor" by asking where X can be found where X is something he knew could be found on the fourth floor. He then found that employees at the "classier" estalishments pronounced /r/ more than the employees at the "lower" class department stores in New York City.<BR/><BR/>Like I said, I have a vague recollection of another study involving department stores, but I can't remember it. Still, that would be an interesting kind of study the way you describe it, to go to the same department store and look into language variation among those working in different sections like gardening, sporting goods, clothing, etc. Repeat the study on different stores.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06108862144262381587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-61865739529289040162008-07-24T15:46:00.000-07:002008-07-24T15:46:00.000-07:00Byron, Thank you so much! I think that was the on...Byron, <BR/>Thank you so much! I think that was the one, but it was in one of my early linguistics classes and I couldn't bring up Labov's name. I'll change my note to reflect the proper location in New York.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-77099797575857339422008-07-24T15:03:00.000-07:002008-07-24T15:03:00.000-07:00"Dialects also reflect social status. (Don't get m..."Dialects also reflect social status. (Don't get me started on social status! Today I have to stick with dialects...) There once was a study done in England (I wish I could remember the names) where different floors of a department store had slightly different English usage, and this was seen as an indicator of status."<BR/><BR/>It sounds vaguely familiar to me, but I think I may be confusing it with Labov's (1972) study of postvocalic /r/ at Saks Fifth Avenue, Macy's, and S. Klein in New York City.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06108862144262381587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-45824642610046170802008-07-24T12:27:00.000-07:002008-07-24T12:27:00.000-07:00I'm not a big fan of dialects, either. Even when d...I'm not a big fan of dialects, either. Even when done well, I feel that I end up spending too much time reading them. <BR/>Rhythm and word choice is a very good way to get them across (must learn, must learn :) )Aliette de Bodardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07797816958842382821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-21189585728804410282008-07-24T10:03:00.000-07:002008-07-24T10:03:00.000-07:00Thanks for coming, Elizabeth. I appreciate the co...Thanks for coming, Elizabeth. I appreciate the comment.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-80739114610933222892008-07-24T09:56:00.000-07:002008-07-24T09:56:00.000-07:00Dialect can be some of the most painful things to ...Dialect can be some of the most painful things to read sometimes, even if the author put a lot of work into it. I like your recommended approach--it is nice to think of the comfort of the reader!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15255348354418763730noreply@blogger.com