tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post8716788529200845902..comments2024-03-29T03:45:01.236-07:00Comments on TalkToYoUniverse: TTYU Retro: What's in a "strong female character"?Juliette Wadehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-48370403289693899032013-07-04T07:10:21.181-07:002013-07-04T07:10:21.181-07:00Margaret, I was a tomboy too! :) I've been exp...Margaret, I was a tomboy too! :) I've been exploring the nuances of characters - especially "strong females" a lot lately. Determination takes people a long way. Thanks for the comment. Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-70034306065949962462013-07-04T00:08:55.515-07:002013-07-04T00:08:55.515-07:00Looks like I missed this one the first time round,...Looks like I missed this one the first time round, but I'm with you wholeheartedly. I was always a tomboy growing up, falling more on the masculine scale of behaviors...though I did most of it in long dresses with the billions of little mirrors embroidered on the front. That said, my goal with all my characters is to have them be people, whether saving the world or just the peanut butter sandwich.<br /><br />Reading is supposed to open our minds to possibility. How can it do that if everyone follows the exact same model of heroic behavior, gendered or not. And yes, I could see your daughter taking over, or saving, the world in her long purple dress. It's determination more than strength that succeeds, often by inches.Margaret M. Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00537558539259791284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-66761887251562402562012-06-11T14:30:37.431-07:002012-06-11T14:30:37.431-07:00Thanks for your comment! I like how you approached...Thanks for your comment! I like how you approached it, too. :)Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-65331467820320711202012-06-11T11:29:19.745-07:002012-06-11T11:29:19.745-07:00It looks like you and I were tuning in to the same...It looks like you and I were tuning in to the same collective-brain-satellite. I wrote on this very topic last week: http://www.christinetyler.net/2012/06/10-traits-other-than-guns-and-gogo.html<br /><br />I love your take on it as well :DChristine Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08711726941768571495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-3880406841059656332012-06-04T09:25:30.333-07:002012-06-04T09:25:30.333-07:00I'm a big fan of compassion and mercy, myself....I'm a big fan of compassion and mercy, myself. You do bring up an interesting problem, though - that of the difference between what I'm describing as traditional femininity, and what has recently been described as traditional by some groups in the US population. I think that there are a number of groups who are trying very hard to shrink the number of positive qualities allowed to women. The strength that women contribute to social systems (like keeping the household running) is very valuable, and definitely applicable to arenas outside the home as well. A lot of what you describe as "keeping women in a place lesser than men" is nothing more than taking the position of women and defining it as lesser - i.e. minimizing the importance of their contributions. The point of this post was to say that women don't need to conform to masculine ideas of strength in order to be strong. Similarly, I am trying to encourage men to realize which aspects of their own strength come from character traits that are often thought of as feminine. Nurturing a new mindset is something that a lot of women are engaged in right now. A lot of stories have shown us that saving the world can be accomplished by applying just the right amount of effort in the right place at the right time. That's something that can be accomplished by all kinds of people.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-67763188332962110152012-06-04T09:15:33.661-07:002012-06-04T09:15:33.661-07:00One of the difficulties with a topic like this is ...One of the difficulties with a topic like this is that it can sometimes be tricky to tell if responders are being sarcastic or not. Assuming, though, that you meant this seriously, I must admit I disagree. Patience and tolerance of ambiguity are not the opposite of decisiveness. The ability to keep your head and your direction in the midst of chaos is very useful for world-saving. I think that things like decisive action get a lot of attention, while the underlying traits that can form a successful foundation for those decisive actions - in both males and females - often get missed.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-66040174739517445662012-06-03T13:46:18.569-07:002012-06-03T13:46:18.569-07:00What other qualities of traditional femininity do ...What other qualities of traditional femininity do you consider valuable? <br /><br />Compassion and Mercy are pretty nice, though I'm not sure if those are considered traditionally feminine or not given the pictures of "traditional" mothers that I've seen foisted around by regressive elements of society. Empathy and helping people in more ways than just altering their physical circumstances but nurturing a new mindset could be interesting to see as well.<br /><br />How do they contribute strength to a social system? Unfortunately the only thing that I really know of that "traditional" femininity does to contribute strength to social systems is that it keeps women in a place lesser than men in order to stroke the egos of men, especially men in power.<br /><br />How might they change the way a character would go about saving the world? <br /><br />Depending upon how "traditional" we're being here, as long as they were not the only character traits the character had, it'd probably just mean that the character was more of a team player and less of a lone hero or even that highly elevated above her compatriots.<br /><br />Can you recommend some strong female characters who are strong in feminine as well as masculine ways?<br /><br />Not particularly, no. Mostly because the question of what actually constitutes "feminine" and what constitutes "backwards social rules designed to restrict women to an inferior position in society," is kinda blurred.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-11845552497655723362012-06-03T13:34:52.454-07:002012-06-03T13:34:52.454-07:00Eh? Patience and tolerating long periods of ambig...Eh? Patience and tolerating long periods of ambiguity? Those don't really seem to go well with the kinds of decisive action that tend to get rolled together under the umbrella term "saving the world." I must admit, as character traits in greater than a very modest measure, the qualities actually just seem completely at odds with the mentality and thrust of heroics and hero stories.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-67899560204859348732012-05-15T06:43:40.243-07:002012-05-15T06:43:40.243-07:00Your mention of the issues surrounding the Jess ch...Your mention of the issues surrounding the Jess character actually makes me think of a great character in children's literature, Fancy Nancy. A quote from her: "Frilly socks *do* help me play soccer better." She's all about the convergence of fancy, intelligent, and strong. Thanks for your recommendations!Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-91774346970245530862012-05-06T22:27:53.299-07:002012-05-06T22:27:53.299-07:00You're entirely welcome, Avery. Thanks for you...You're entirely welcome, Avery. Thanks for your comment, and for the recommendation!Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-8811320486486168452012-05-03T22:52:23.712-07:002012-05-03T22:52:23.712-07:00Thanks for this! I try to keep this very question ...Thanks for this! I try to keep this very question in the back of my head when constructing women, men, or trans/other characters. They don't' have to be like traditional men to be strong, only lose those "traditional" traits which make them weak. <br /><br />One of my favorite all-time female characters is Charlotte from The True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle. She goes from being a prim and proper girl passenger on a voyage, to the other extreme of being a filthy sailor engaged in mutiny against a captain, and then back again. She is constantly re-evaluating who she really is, and which qualities are really hers. And the improbable ending always makes me smile.Avery Oslohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14507517705621361426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-36931591600275132832012-05-01T18:47:04.390-07:002012-05-01T18:47:04.390-07:00Definitely second the Cordelia listing, Cordelia&#...Definitely second the Cordelia listing, Cordelia's Honor is one of my absolute favorites, another Bujold character jumped to my mind too (and now that I've started thinking on it I can see 4 more of hers I'd also like to list...) Lady Ista of Paladin of Souls. She is a person who starts out bitter and worn out by the events of her life but simple refuses to give up, she endures and presses onward seeking something better for herself. She has many of the characteristics listed above (well most of the time, nobody's perfect!) but isn't a brawny hero, doesn't seek out fights or glory and solves problems mostly due to her willingness to seek answers and ask for directions, not because she stubbornly forces things to conform to her will.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13100603668377701626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-78680733771245517542012-05-01T10:14:28.244-07:002012-05-01T10:14:28.244-07:00What great food for thought. This made me recall t...What great food for thought. This made me recall the "non-troversy" over Zooey Deschenal's character Jess in New Girl. Of all the things to get up-in-arms over, I didn't think a girly-girl would be one of them. She appropriately told off another character with this great lamentation:<br /><br /> "I brake for birds. I rock a lot of polka dots. I have touched glitter in the last 24 hours. I spend my entire day talking to children. And I find it fundamentally strange that you’re not a dessert person. It freaks me out. I’m sorry that I don’t talk like Murphy Brown. And I hate your pants suit. I wish it had ribbons on it or something just to make it slightly cuter but that doesn’t mean I’m not smart and tough and strong."<br /><br />People are quick to categorize and label one another - often times without being properly informed. Just because one person physically beats up another doesn't make them strong in every way. And a person quick to cry isn't a weakling. <br /><br />My ultimate heroine is Mara of the Acoma in Raymond Feist and Janny Wurts' Empire Series trilogy. She is a strong, complex woman who is able to see beyond the trappings of her station in life. She initiates ground-breaking social changes and is willing to give her life in order for it to take hold. I read these novels once a year and become completely immersed every time. <br /><br />Another amazing, strong female character is Nicole in the Rama series by Arthur C. Clarke and Gentry Lee. To embark on a journey fraught with such unknowns takes strength of epic proportions. This is great series with an obvious scathing view of humanity and gratuitous amounts of travesty befall her. But she holds on to her moral center and faces her end bravely.Meghanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09457012387418872704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-4825213862448834012012-05-01T10:07:48.424-07:002012-05-01T10:07:48.424-07:00Interestingly, the companion to Graceling (Fire) i...Interestingly, the companion to Graceling (Fire) is very much the inverse -- a female character who wants to be traditionally feminine, and who particularly wants to be a mother, but due to her circumstances she finds that she can't and she spends the story coming to terms with it. I didn't enjoy it as much as the first book, but it definitely plays with the idea of a female character who is very tough, but avoids rejecting the feminine.Beckyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17476469818875049798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-88554802135003266432012-05-01T09:46:56.771-07:002012-05-01T09:46:56.771-07:00I agree as well--it's one of the things I cher...I agree as well--it's one of the things I cherish most about my girlfriend. I've surprised myself at how stereotypical I am when it comes to expressing my own feelings: I basically don't. Ha. But she encourages me to get after what I want more; both in our relationship and in the world. It's helped me function more happily, and it's also revealed to me some of the hidden reasons people may have for doing what they do. My girlfriend also demonstrates this through her, shall we say 'commanding' driving style.... <br /><br />To the article: Those are great qualities to recognize and celebrate in women. I myself possess a lot of #2 (to detrimental effect, perhaps, see previous paragraph). As a result, it's often hard to wipe it out of characters that need to be more domineering, single-minded. Early stories of mine definitely suffered from everyone being too reasonable.Sam Xhttp://www.cosmicvinegar.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-69924581345949763032012-05-01T06:27:31.353-07:002012-05-01T06:27:31.353-07:00Mary Elizabeth, thanks so much for your comment. I...Mary Elizabeth, thanks so much for your comment. I particularly like your use of the word "orchestrating." Even just getting more than one dish ready for dinner at the same time requires careful multitasking (orchestrating), so I think that's a really important quality to include. Thanks also for your recommendation. Girl of Fire and Thorns sounds like a cool book to look for!Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-30968843674452348812012-05-01T06:18:21.426-07:002012-05-01T06:18:21.426-07:00Quite a thoughtful post. I spent a good deal of it...Quite a thoughtful post. I spent a good deal of it in nodding mode because I've long been quietly enraged by the idea of a strong female characters having to be women who merely kick ass and swagger as if they were caricatures of a male action figure. How can being physically combative against enemies be the ONLY way to be strong? It just didn't (and still doesn't) makes sense to me.<br /><br />One addition to your list might be multitasking/ balancing acts/ orchestrating. Females are often asked (explicitly or implicitly) to do a variety of tasks and to do them well at the same time. Think of all the sitcom and romcom portraits of female characters having to do X amount of things at the same time and fizzling out with comedy ensuing! The reality seems to be that when the tasks are completed well, few people will give the girl her, ahem, "ataboy".<br /><br />In regards to a strong female character that I've recently come across was the protagonist in the YA fantasy Girl of Fire and Thorns. She has an intriguing and nontraditional mix of traits: overweight, pious, unapologetic in her bookishness, utterly competent in her knowledge of military campaigns. She had mad poise when under physical attack, when becoming the leader of revellion, when being forced to wed a duplicitous man and when having to foster a spoiled stepson. And she was a teenager!Mary Elizabeth Burroughshttp://theamberjacks.blogspot.com.au/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-24161064126100294582012-04-30T19:13:00.883-07:002012-04-30T19:13:00.883-07:00MK, thanks for the recommendation!MK, thanks for the recommendation!Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-61261697677345828402012-04-30T19:06:17.055-07:002012-04-30T19:06:17.055-07:00Tiffany Aching (from the Wee Free Men & some o...Tiffany Aching (from the Wee Free Men & some other books by Terry Pratchett) immediately jumped to mind. A lot of what she does are simply the dirty, thankless jobs that no one else wants to do. Like helping old people clip their toenails. I hadn't thought about it before, but she's a great example of a strong female character who isn't taking up what in her society is considered male roles.MKHutchinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07715686902529938959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-80506529138046676812012-04-30T12:53:06.132-07:002012-04-30T12:53:06.132-07:00I hated the girly-girl stories too, but I'd li...I hated the girly-girl stories too, but I'd like to see if we can dig a little deeper on those and see why it is that so many girls behave that way...I would think it's because they're 1. encouraged by advertisers and 2. socially rewarded for doing so. (Grrr) <br /><br />I love Harry Crewe from The Blue Sword, too. I may have to go back and take another look at it from my current point of view.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-25408811510911415502012-04-30T12:48:40.612-07:002012-04-30T12:48:40.612-07:00Chihuahua0, I entirely agree that we need to see m...Chihuahua0, I entirely agree that we need to see more well-rounded male characters. As well as cis-male characters who have feminine traits. Hyper and perky doesn't entail stupid. Thanks so much for your comment.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-48079309308589652022012-04-30T12:46:08.329-07:002012-04-30T12:46:08.329-07:00The Beans, thanks for your comment! Good luck if/w...The Beans, thanks for your comment! Good luck if/when that child comes along... :) I've never read Jane Eyre, but I might have to go find myself a copy.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-52630400866994121352012-04-30T11:03:33.018-07:002012-04-30T11:03:33.018-07:00When that pic of the warrior girl got passed aroun...When that pic of the warrior girl got passed around my friends, one of them piped up with, "Oh my gosh! Put blond hair on her and she's my daughter _____!" So the pic didn't strike me quite the same as it did to you. I think both pics you posted are awesome. Neither of them exclude the other in my mind.<br /><br />I hated stories where the girls are too girly and obsessed with boys and clothes and other valley girl stuff. (Hence I avoided sitcoms, and still do--though it doesn't explain my enjoyment of Legally Blond. That still baffles me.) Girls who were too far on the other end of the spectrum didn't make any sense to me either. But those who could be both feminine and strong in one way or another were amazing. <br /><br />Harry Crewe from The Blue Sword is one of my all time favorite heroines. She's a bit of a tomboy and tall for a young woman but is also a bookworm. She knows she doesn't fit in to polite society, doesn't know how or particularly care except that it bothers her brother that she doesn't, and when she's kidnapped by the Hill King, she finds her place both as warrior and a woman. I still get choked up in the end when she doesn't know how the king will respond to what she's done against his orders but she goes back anyway. Heck, just remembering the scene makes me choke up, and it's partly because despite being the Damalur-sol (Lady Hero) to his people, she's woman enough to care what he personally will think of her. She fears his emotional distance while being at his side as a hero more than being exiled completely.Jaleh Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02467289924719654371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-87823909642362256732012-04-30T09:14:10.318-07:002012-04-30T09:14:10.318-07:00Female characters being too masculine is a concern...Female characters being too masculine is a concern of more than one person I know, and one reason why they hate the book <i>Graceling</i>. I attribute all the "unfeminine" traits to other reasons, but the protagonist of that book seems to want to avoid everything female, without actually being a man.<br /><br />Personally, the inverse is also important. There's the entire "strong female character" concept, but there isn't really a "strong male character" archetype. They're sort of neglected in the whole thesis-antithesis structure, and it will take a few more years before the gender composition of YA swings and then the synthesis part of gender roles will rear their head.<br /><br />It's this whole synthesis thing, that any character of any gender are allowed to be both feminine and masculine at the same time.<br /><br />Yes, that character can be as hyper as a perky girl and act like a total parakeet and save the world at the same time. Oh, and he's allowed to be a brony.Chihuahua0http://youngaspiringwriter.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-47752286022410328132012-04-30T08:47:55.743-07:002012-04-30T08:47:55.743-07:00That's what diapers are for. I am going to ado...That's what diapers are for. I am going to adopt that motto once I end up changing the ones belonging to my future hypothetical child. :)<br /><br />And as for a strong female character, my go-to model is Jane Eyre. True, she's not an action warrior, but she did demonstrate that you must always do what is right no matter how tempting it is to go wayward.<br /><br />-Barb the French BeanThe Beanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09294653760778922184noreply@blogger.com