tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post540291938585559006..comments2024-03-29T03:45:01.236-07:00Comments on TalkToYoUniverse: Workshop: Rendering a Created Language in EnglishJuliette Wadehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-29401478771276227262009-02-18T14:25:00.000-08:002009-02-18T14:25:00.000-08:00Juliette,By "up close and personal", I'm trying to...Juliette,<BR/><BR/>By "up close and personal", I'm trying to keep speech sounds that would not travel far underwater. So the vocal part of the formal language matches closely between air breathers and water breathers. <BR/><BR/>The colour change can be both warning (flash bright to warn the herd a predator approaches) and camouflage (okay, the rest of the herd knows there's a predator, now hide yourself). <BR/><BR/>By "mispronounce", I meant that emotions can sometimes overwhelm intended responses - so when a subordinate is forced to agree to your wishes, they might skinflash red anger for a moment, before they get themselves under control and turn submission white. Or they might vent the pheremones of fear rather than acquiescence.<BR/><BR/>I'm thinking that the earliest water-arcati had to move from sea-mammal-style air breathing to true water breathers because surfacing to breathe put them at the mercy of their enemies in ships.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-20928908365813095422009-02-18T09:23:00.000-08:002009-02-18T09:23:00.000-08:00K,I think you're probably best off minimizing the ...K,<BR/><BR/>I think you're probably best off minimizing the amount of linguistic dissonance by mostly writing in plain English. That said, I think one great and simple way you could show the difference between languages is by giving them different politeness forms. You might want to give some thought to how people greet each other in Eyan/Dalkan. How does the capacity for empathy, or the broadcasting of empathy, affect what you say? Do these people ever make explicit reference to the other's ability, or their comfort, etc. when they greet one another? How would they open an interaction? If you can find distinct ways for them to do this, then they will coordinate with your language description and you won't actually have to change the quality of the entire language.<BR/><BR/>One key thing to keep in mind here is that you're writing in Kei's point of view, and Kei is an Eyan, but you don't want people to feel her as foreign. You want them to align with her. One way to do this is NOT to make her language sound too far out of the ordinary. Give it some flavor, but keep it mostly plain English so people can feel comfortable inside her head and not always have to be reminded of her foreignness.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-79918981719881499382009-02-18T04:07:00.000-08:002009-02-18T04:07:00.000-08:00Sorry, I think I confused the issue. The 'transla...Sorry, I think I confused the issue. <BR/><BR/>The 'translation problem' of alien into English is not a problem when Kei is the POV character, because she speaks all the languages on the table well, and automatically translates them for the reader, identifying which language is being spoken when it's an issue. I hadn't felt that I had to represent that in any way.<BR/><BR/>It becomes a problem when I have a different POV character who is not so skilled. So say I have Terran (human) and and Eyan (Alien) characters talking. If I'm using the human character (HC), and they're speaking human, then I could easily represent the alien character's difficulty with the language through grammar problems or dropped sounds or whatever, and that works because we all buy that 'human' is essentially English. <BR/><BR/>So if my HC and my AC are speaking alien? I guess if the AC is my POV char than I could do the same thing, and hope the reader would just accept that, even though the 'broken english' on the page would be spoken by a character who in fact speaks better English. But I think that would work if you don't draw too much attention to it. <BR/><BR/>So the stupid difficulty I've set for myself is that my HC and AC are speaking a third language, which is a second language for both of them. And as I put that here, well it just seems crazy stupid, but in my mind the negotiations that go along with not speaking the same language (and in fact speaking a language that's ill suited for the task at hand) are part of how the hitherto unrealized 'mistake' comes to life. <BR/><BR/>But maybe I'm just making things too complicated.Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996587091003594735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-51272502224426873932009-02-17T14:16:00.000-08:002009-02-17T14:16:00.000-08:00Juliette,It is just local color, at the moment, an...Juliette,<BR/><BR/>It is just local color, at the moment, anyway. And, yes, Ringo is pretty much your average human(oid). But for his black hair and eyes and his coppery skin tone, he looks very much like Bronte and Charlie. I haven't entirely decided... perhaps indigenes are smaller than Settlers. In Chapter One, Charlie has an exchange with an acquaintence who is considerably shorter than himself, and though I don't state it in the text, it's in my mind that the acquaintence is also an indigene. Of course, charlie's no shrimp. At six' five" or possibly six' six", he's taller than most people. That would still put walter, the acquaintence, at about six feet. Bronte's more like six' four", and slight whereas Charlie has more bulk...<BR/><BR/>All of which is merely to say that indigenes could be physically smaller than at least some settlers without being the size of hobbits or dwarves.Catreonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15959115298646880631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-56407926330653119302009-02-17T09:17:00.000-08:002009-02-17T09:17:00.000-08:00K,What an interesting situation you've got there. ...K,<BR/><BR/>What an interesting situation you've got there. I'm not sure that was quite what I meant by "translation," but it's definitely something to think about. I have a hard time grasping what it is you're striving for from this basic description.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-20113261743945534912009-02-17T09:16:00.000-08:002009-02-17T09:16:00.000-08:00David,By "up-close and personal" I'm assuming you ...David,<BR/><BR/>By "up-close and personal" I'm assuming you mean that this language form is not intended for public speaking. I can see that someone might feel awkward speaking the formal language, maybe at a loss for the grace required or not knowing the most appropriate phrase. I have a harder time thinking that anyone would have difficulty because of "mispronunciation" as such. It's interesting to consider the possibility of the skinflashing as being old, but it would probably be a good idea to figure out some basic evolutionary reason why they'd have it. Was it initially for camouflage? For conveying mood? How, and for what reason, would that kind of communication become complex and symbolic? If you're wanting communication with humans, you're setting the humans a huge task with a color language, and you may need them to rely on translator machines or some such. Did you decide whether the arcati can still breathe air or not?Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-24386226727688003512009-02-17T09:10:00.000-08:002009-02-17T09:10:00.000-08:00Catreona,That's an interesting exchange. Hard to ...Catreona,<BR/><BR/>That's an interesting exchange. Hard to judge as I have no idea of its relation to the main conflict; it seems mostly like local color. You might want to give a more thorough physical impression of your alien, as I have a hard time visualizing him as anything but generic humanoid at the moment. There are lots of opportunities there for revelations about each of the characters and their views of one another - that might be fun to explore. You might also want to give some attention to whether Treeplanter has an accent or other sign of dialect - you could convey this most simply with half a line of description at the start.Juliette Wadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02879627074920760712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-65449251637188069672009-02-16T16:16:00.000-08:002009-02-16T16:16:00.000-08:00Well, here's the problem with getting behind. I w...Well, here's the problem with getting behind. I was going to agree with you in your last post that language was probably most relevant in setting and plot, but I definitely face "the translation problem" which you identify as being about dialogue and voice, lol.<BR/><BR/>Kei is my protagonist and, because of her singular upbringing, she is fluent in all the languages in play but misses a significant mistranslation in legal documents between Eyan and English. She misses it because the English terms are not ones she is that familiar, and the connotations, the outrage and disapproval are the same even though the terms don't refer to the same acts. This mistranslation is discovered by two characters who mainly speak Eyan and Terran respectively, although they both have limited Dalkan skills. I've found this to be a very challenging situation to represent in English. <BR/><BR/>Which goes to show, I need more help than I even knew, lol. <BR/><BR/>-K.Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996587091003594735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-17987999426015362732009-02-16T15:24:00.000-08:002009-02-16T15:24:00.000-08:00Current thoughts...The formal language is close-up...Current thoughts...<BR/><BR/>The formal language is close-up and personal. It involves spoken words, colour changes and pheremones. Getting it all correct takes a lot of study and concentration.<BR/><BR/>Informal language at close range is mostly spoken, although there would be some colour and scent. But nobody laughs if you "mispronounce" a word or two.<BR/><BR/>At a distance, colour and some sign language is the main channel of communication, with perhaps some pheremones if the currents are right or the character loses control over there scent glands in times of stress.<BR/><BR/>To render it in English, something will be said, or signed, or skinflashed, or what the scent says to another arcati will be explained.<BR/><BR/>Thoughts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-9318105128197642622009-02-16T13:36:00.000-08:002009-02-16T13:36:00.000-08:00Juliette,I'm still finding occurrences of OK which...Juliette,<BR/><BR/>I'm still finding occurrences of OK which need to be replaced with all right; which has led me, somewhat impatiently, to the conclusion that I need a good substitute for OK. That is, while all right is certainly serviceable, something analogous to OK, especially in the speech of kids and young adults, would be better. Haven't come up with such a term yet, but the idea is stewing and brewing in the back regions.<BR/><BR/>A second item that may actually be fully ontopic for a change: Here's a brief excerpt.<BR/><BR/><EM>We decided to enter Fairport harbor under sail, so it took a little more than the four hours I'd reckoned on. Still, we came into the busy and picturesque little harbor just after noon. The clerk, an Aboriginal named Ringo Treeplanter, who'd pulled the lunch shift was an old buddy of mine, as many harbor clerks in many harbors were. So, much of the half hour we spent with him in the small, coolly leaf dappled office was spent in chat.<BR/><BR/>Sinclair spoke to him in the Aboriginal language, spoke with a fluency I wasn’t sure if I admired or envied. Treeplanter replied. Turning to me with a broad, delighted grin he said, "Your friend, Shepherd, has the heart of a Son of Vracally. He is a good man and will prove a good friend to you. Love him well." Sinclair gave a slight bow, looking mildly embarrassed.<BR/><BR/>"I thank you for your words, Treeplanter," I answered, using the rather mannered, formal speech that seemed appropriate in response to such an endorsement. "I shall carry them in the heart of my memory and heed them well."<BR/><BR/>Treeplanter nodded, satisfied. Switching to British he asked Sinclair, "So, what brings you to Falibana?"<BR/><BR/>"Not a what, but a who," Sinclair answered, grinning mischievously. I glared at him, or tried to.<BR/><BR/>Treeplanter laughed, a low, gravelly sound deep in his chest. "Ah," he said. "You too admire la belle Jocelyn?"<BR/><BR/>"To know her is to admire her," Sinclair said gallantly.<BR/><BR/>"That is true," Treeplanter said. "She is a fine young lady. Our friend Shepherd is most fortunate to have won her heart."<BR/><BR/>I cleared my throat. "How are Sarah and the little ones?" I asked pointedly.<BR/><BR/>Treeplanter’s black eyes gleamed with pleasure, lighting his copper colored face. "Sarah is very well, thank you. But, you would not recognize Huldah and Daniel. They are five years old now; bright as pearls and curious as magpies. And, the vocabulary of them! I think Sarah must have swallowed Van-Heusen’s Unabridged Dictionary and the whole series of the Encyclopedia Britannica when she was pregnant with them. Sometimes they ask us questions that, we not only can’t answer, but have never thought of asking. You must come see them. You too, Sinclair. Sarah would be delighted."<BR/><BR/>We thanked him, saying we’d look in around teatime. Then Sinclair stopped at a café, where he said he'd wait wile I went on to Jocelyn's. I squeezed his shoulder and passed on, along the harbor front boulevard. I turned up a steep transverse street, and then into Sea View Gardens.</EM>Catreonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15959115298646880631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6320269312957801390.post-72312205530198568802009-02-15T21:28:00.000-08:002009-02-15T21:28:00.000-08:00I'm not sure yet whether the colour language will ...I'm not sure yet whether the colour language will be something that the arcati have had for a long time, or something new the genetic engineers have added.<BR/><BR/>If it's old, combine the colour and scent languages, and perhaps there is no need for verbal language at all (of course, that makes it hard for me to translate it into English, the reader to understand it, and the human explorers to decihper it).<BR/><BR/>Although, as you say, colour and scent may be best for emotional content.<BR/><BR/>Much to think on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com